Epicureans and Stoics, LH 4-5; FL 7-8, HWT 6-8
ALSO RECOMMENDED: De Natura Deorum (On the Nature of the Gods) Cicero's dialogue between a Skeptic, a Stoic, and an Epicurean... & JMH's smart commentary on it in Doubt: A History*... LISTEN (Sep '21)... Natalie Haynes on Lucretius and Epicurus (BBC radio podcast)...LH
1. According to Epicurus, fear of death is based on what, and the best way to live is what? Are (or were) you afraid of death, or of dying? Are you more afraid of losing others?
2. How is the modern meaning of "epicurean" different from Epicurus's? Do you consider yourself epicurean in either sense of the term?
3. What famous 20th century philosopher echoed Epicurus's attitude towards death? Do you agree with him?
4. How did Epicurus respond to the idea of divine punishment in the afterlife? Is the hypothesis of a punitive and torturous afterlife something you take seriously, as a real possibility? Why or why not?
5. What was the Stoics' basic idea, and what was their aim? Are you generally stoical in life?
6. Why did Cicero think we shouldn't worry about dying? Is his approach less or more worrisome than the Epicureans'?
7. Why didn't Seneca consider life too short? Do you think you make efficient use of your time? How do you think you could do better?
2. How is the modern meaning of "epicurean" different from Epicurus's? Do you consider yourself epicurean in either sense of the term?
3. What famous 20th century philosopher echoed Epicurus's attitude towards death? Do you agree with him?
4. How did Epicurus respond to the idea of divine punishment in the afterlife? Is the hypothesis of a punitive and torturous afterlife something you take seriously, as a real possibility? Why or why not?
5. What was the Stoics' basic idea, and what was their aim? Are you generally stoical in life?
6. Why did Cicero think we shouldn't worry about dying? Is his approach less or more worrisome than the Epicureans'?
7. Why didn't Seneca consider life too short? Do you think you make efficient use of your time? How do you think you could do better?
8. What does the author say might be the cost of stoicism? Is it possible to be stoical but also appropriately compassionate, caring, sensitive to others' suffering, etc.?
HWT
1. Who were the three great founders of American pragmatism?
2. When does philosophy "recover itself" according to John Dewey, and what should it not doubt according to Charles S. Peirce?
3. What did Richard Rorty say pragmatists desire?
4. As earlier noted in Kurt Andersen's Fantasyland, Karl Rove said what about "reality"? What do you say about what he said?
FL
1. The people we call the American founders were what?
2. Who was Jonathan Edwards and how was he like Anne Hutchinson?
3. Who was John Wesley and what did he demand of his followers?
4. Who was George Whitefield and what did he "implant" in American Christianity?
5. What did Thomas Jefferson tell his nephew?
6. What was Immanuel Kant's "motto of Enlightenment"?
More discussion questions:
- Have you experienced the death of someone close to you? How did you handle it?
- Do you care about the lives of those who will survive you, after you've died? Is their continued existence an alternate (and possibly better) way of thinking about the concept of an "afterlife"?
- Do you consider Epicurus's disbelief in immortal souls a solution to the problem of dying, or an evasion of it? Do you find the thought of ultimate mortality consoling or mortifying?
- How do you know, or decide, which things you can change and which you can't?
- Were the Stoics right to say we can always control our attitude towards events, even if we can't control events themselves?
- Is it easier for you not to get "worked up" about small things you can't change (like the weather, or bad drivers) or large things (like presidential malfeasance and terrorist atrocites)? Should you be equally calm in the face of both?
- Is it possible to live like a Stoic without becoming cold, heartless, and inhumane?
- What do you think of when you hear the word "therapy"? Do you think philosophers can be good therapists?
- Do you think "the greatest happiness of the greatest number" is an appropriate goal in life? Can it be effectively pursued by those who shun "any direct involvement in public life"?
- If the motion of atoms explains everything, can we be free?
- Is it true that your private thoughts can never be "enslaved"?
Feb 1 (more on Epicureans & Stoics)
#11
ReplyDeleteLH 1. Epicurus thought that the fear of death was based on "bad logic." He believed in living simplistically. According to Warburton, simple life can be summarized like this: "...be kind to those around you, and surround yourselves with friends." At a younger age, I feared death because I had illogical ideas of what happened after death. At this moment, death does not scare me, but what does scare me is the loss of others in my life.
HTW 1. The three great founders of pragmatism are the philosophers John Dewey, Charles Sanders Peirce, and William James.
FL 1. The people we call the founders of America were " rationalists and pragmatists."
What did the founders of pragmatism teach? What are they known for besides being founders of pragmatism?
Delete#12
ReplyDeleteLH 1. Epicurus believed that fearing death was unreasonable as you wouldn't even be there to experience your own death. He reasoned that the best life to live was a simple one, focusing on kindness to others, making and maintaining friendships, and avoiding giving into greed and asking for more than you are capable of achieving. While I do agree with the previous statement, it doesn't do much to ease my anxiety over death., specifically my own. I am absolutely terrified of dying and if I think about it too much I tend to spiral and panic. I'm still working on how I can overcome this fear.
LH 7. Seneca believed that the reason why most people believe life is too short is because most people don't truly live. They waste time and opportunities and regret their choices. Personally, I try to make the most of my time but I might spend too much time by myself not being productive. That's not to say I regret that time spent, but as I grow closer to living on my own I feel I should break out of my shell more and prepare as much as I can for the unknown.
Answering the question regarding Stoicism and if we can always control how we react towards life events, to an extent I don't think we can. We can surely train our outward reactions and conceal our thoughts, but our thoughts are still reactions. And there are many things in life that we can't not react to, especially with how much we are able to access on social media. That being said, I think too much social media, especially on the "dark side," trains us to tolerate negative media by not thinking about it at all. We can easily swipe away whatever we don't want to see, dismissing world events with ease, and I think that is a dangerous thing. Humans are social creatures, we feel things for others both positive and negative, so evolving into something that doesn't feel for others would be almost inhuman of us. Of course, there are those that naturally don't feel empathy at all and that isn't to say there's something wrong with that mindset, but to completely disregard our emotions and thoughts would be counterintuitive.
1. According to Epicurus, the fear of death was based on bad logic. He thought it was a state of mind that needed to be over come. I might say I’m afraid of what might come after death, but I also don’t know because I won’t be here to experience it.
ReplyDelete2. The modern meaning of epicurean is the opposite of what Epicurus represented. Epicurus wanted his followers to realize that we all seek pleasure but don’t need that and should strive to live simply. The modern meaning is someone that enjoys luxury.
3. Ludwig Wittgenstein agreed with Epicurus’ view of death. I agree with their view. It’s comforting to know that something that always seem so daunting and scary but is inevitable ‘is not an event in life.’ Using their view you don’t really need to worry or be scared about dying because it won’t happen to you and you won’t know.
4. He thought of the idea as something to be dismissed. He believed we shouldn’t worry too much about punishment in the afterlife because the gods aren’t too concerned with their creations. The idea of an afterlife has never really bothered me, but I do think Epicurus’ view is a little dismissive of something that is talked about your whole life and could potentially be a real concern.
5. The Stoics essentially believed in rolling with the punches. I get worried about things sometimes but I try to remind myself I’m wasting my time by stressing over things I can’t change, so I guess I have been being stoical throughout my life.
6. Cicero believed we shouldn’t worry about dying because our souls are immortal, while Epicurus believed we shouldn’t worry because it’s just something that is a part of life. I honestly like the Epicurean view more because it’s less extreme. I feel like you should just accept that death is apart of life so you shouldn’t be scared of it rather than making other reasons to not be like our sounds never dying.
7.Seneca didn’t think that the problem was the brevity of life, but rather the way people spend their lives that make it seem meaningless. I would like to think I make good use of my time because I’m productive with things I have to do like schoolwork, I spend time with people I love and I spend time doing things I love. I probably could spend less time on my phone doing nothing though.
8. The author says the cost of stoicism is that you might become cold and even less human. I don't think a true stoic could be compassionate and caring based on the original ideas on it, but I think incorporating stoicism into your life and thoughts could be very beneficial, as long as you didn’t take to the extreme and turn off all emotion.
Laney #11
Delete1. The three front founders of American pragmatism were William James, John Dewey, and Charles Sanders Pierce.
2. Dewey said that philosophy recovers itself when it stops being a way for philosophers to solve their problems but rather a way for philosophers to solve men’s problems. Pierce said philosophy shouldn’t doubt what we don’t doubt in our hearts.
3. Rorty said pragmatists desire as much intersubjective agreement as possible.
4. Rove said he belongs to the Reality-based community where people believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality. I think he means that you can find practical solutions to things rather than theorizing over possible solutions.
Cole #7
ReplyDelete1. The fear of death is based on bad logic and the way to live a good life is by finding happiness. I am not afraid of dying as I have come to terms with the fact that all living things must as is the order of the universe but what I am most afraid of is losing my sense of purpose. Whether it be to my future spouse or to my community, I have a deep seeded fear of losing my sense of purpose to something that is important to me.
2. The modern meaning of the word has changed from it's original meaning. I don't consider myself either because the beginning definition is to simplistic in style while the later definition is too luxurious.
3. The philosopher was Ludwig Wittgenstein and I agree with him because we do not experience dying because dying means our emotions are no longer working therefore the person dying does not experience it.
LH
ReplyDelete1.He believed the fear of death was based on bad logic and the best way to live was in the present moment, with a simple life style . I used to be scared of death mainly because what comes after is something we cant accurately know. Yet, I realized I would be okay with whatever happens wether its pitch black and silence or I am able to move freely in spirit etc.
2. " Epicurean" is someone who indulges in desires and pleasures which is different from Epicurus where as he liked moderation, too much need to fill desires will only lead to an endless cycle of chasing desires. I think I would see myself between the two, I like to keep a balance of going after my desires but also being content and needing nothing more than what I already have.
3. Philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein echoed his attitude towards death, I do sort of agree mainly due to the fact that it is factual that you won't be the one to experience in your death in there form of grief but we can't really say that the actual process of death is instant or actually experienced.
4.He says that the creator does not involve themselves with their creation. I don't really believe in an eternal torture based off what we have done with our finite time here.
5. The stoicism idea is that we are responsible for how we feel and think, their aim is to control what we can and to not worry about what we can't. Yes I believe that I am aligned with being stoical, I think its easier to navigate life that way, why care or worry about something you cant do anything about ? The way you respond is what you can control though, it has a heavy toll on you when you have those heavy feelings of worry or stress on something that shouldn't really even be on your mind.
Kayla Pulling #7
ReplyDeleteHWT
1. Charles Sanders Pierce, William James, and Josiah Royce
2. According to Dewey, philosophy recovers itself when it experiences failure, reflects from that failure, and ceases to deal with the problems.
3. That beliefs are habits of actions.
4. Rove states that for a reality of alternative facts proves extremely difficult to refute.
Chloe Rush #7:
ReplyDeleteLH-
1. Epicurus argues that the fear of death was a waste of time and that it was based on bad logic. The best way to live, according to Epicurus, is to love a simple lifestyle and be kind to those around you. For me, I am not scared at the act of dying. Im more scared at the fact that I don't know when I will die. I also am afraid of losing others.
Discussion questions:
1. For me, it is easier to not get worked up at the small things that I can not change. These instances like bad weather have such a small affect on my life that I do not stress about it most of the time. However, I do get pretty upset at the big things that I am not able to change. These instances have control over my life to some degree that it is hard for me to accept the fact that I will never be able to change it.
2. My math teacher my senior year of high school passed away from covid. It impacted me pretty hard and I realized that you never truly know how long you have left. It was also hard to have an authority figure in your life that you looked up to just be gone.
1. Epicuris argued that it is more important to live in the moment rather than worry about what will come after death. He emphasizes that he would rather think and live at a human level. I agree with him, I am not concerned about what will happen once my life is over or when it will happen, I just live each day as they come.
ReplyDelete2. I think that your private thoughts can never be enslaved, but they can be very closely confined dependent on your surroundings.
- Sophia Williams section7
Jacob Cuva #7
ReplyDeleteLH
1) He believed that a fear of death is based upon bad logic and a waste of time. If one is to think clearly about death, they should not find it frightening at all. He considered the best way to live was to have a very simple lifestyle, be kind to those around you, and surround yourself with friends.
I personally am petrified of being dead. Eternity is almost by definition incomprehensible so the idea that I will, at some point, not exist for eternity is a tough pill to swallow. That said, the idea of losing everyone I love feels equally as tragic. Obviously Epicurus would score low in neuroticism and this is where our paths diverge. That said, until my analytic mind convinces my amygdala that worry is nothing but wasted time, I currently forecast shaking to the finish line whilst making it the best anxiety ridden trip that one can take. Hurrah!
Epicurus believed that "fear of death was a waste of time and based on bad logic." He argued that if we don't fear the time that came before we existed, why should we fear the time after we exist? He said that if we let go of the fear of death, that we will be able to more easily enjoy the life we are living in the present moment. While I think that his teachings are a nice way of thinking, I, as a christian, believe there is an eternity after death. That when we die, there is a place in this universe for us. As a Christian, I do not fear death because I know there is a place waiting for me.
ReplyDeleteWhat did you think of the chapter on Epicurus and his belief that being afraid of death was a waste of time?
ReplyDeleteRejgar Tovi #7 HWT
ReplyDelete1. The three great founders of pragmatism are Charles Sanders Pierce, Williams James, and John Dewey.
Isaak Cadet # 11
ReplyDeleteFL
1 The people accredit with having founded the country were much more pragmatic than their predecessors who value fine living and though they were believers both then and presently they would probably be seen as blasphemous.
2 Much like Hutchinson, Edwards believed that the proof of god and that the “magic of christ” could still be found present day observed through the “sudden agonies and screamings” that Jesus provoked among his converts.
3 John Wesley was an English cleric, theologian, and evangelist who believed that while baptism was necessary it did not commit one to the church. He instead demanded that his followers abandon all sceptisim, declare themselves true believers, and feel “the Spirit of God immediately and directly.”
4 George Whitefield was a methodist preacher who would implant the memorable Christian who wrote that the “screaming and tremblings that he observed from his followers were provoked by christ himself.
5 Thomas Jefferson encouraged his nephew to question the resistance of a god much like anything else, because, “if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear,” he reasoned.
6 Kants motto for the enlightenment was sapere aude having the courage to use one's own reason. I believe that he was meaning to say we shouldn’t rely on the thoughts of others but be able to think for ourselves and challenge how someone came to their conclusion.
According to Epicurus, fear of death is based on what, and the best way to live is what? Are (or were) you afraid of death, or of dying? Are you more afraid of losing others?
ReplyDeleteFear of death is based on "bad logic." The best way to live was to be kind, surround yourself with friends, fulfill your desire but do not humor desire; for it will only grow into an increasing desire for things you cannot have, which leads to an unfulfilling life. Keep your desires very simple.
I was once frightened of death, the thought of my passing or anyone I knew. The solution was in my fear itself. During a meditation I wanted to tackle my own death; I watched myself die in my imagination, but also saw other people die. I saw atoms reach half-life, I saw stars exploding into nebulae, I saw the overwhelming amount of life that came from "death". That is when it became clear that "Death" was merely an example of the our nature as humans; to add meaning. To me, in objective reality things "are". All things are, and exist, and all events in time harmonize. It is human perception, that adds definition to it all. An attempt by our very complex brains to make sense so we can navigate; an evolutionary tactic that brought us this high in the food chain. That is our constructs of time, our ideas of anything. Death is the very same, a construct to explain the end of a cycle that wouldn't exist if we didn't need it to for the convenience of making sense of other things. It is only a culture of associating so heavily with your physical self that may bring upon a fear of death. For me, I stepped back and saw that death is merely life, in a way that makes sense to you as a human. I am more afraid of losing others, however that is because I am human, and connecting with others is connecting with Me. Losing someone can feel like losing a piece of yourself, watching humans feels like the hive has been hurt; that is creating meaning of reality.
Chris Barnes #12
ReplyDeleteHWT
1. The three great founders of American pragmatism were William James, John Dewey and Charles Sanders.
2. According to John Dewey, philosophy recovers itself when it "ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men." According to Charles S. Pierce, philosophy should not doubt "what we have in our hearts."
3. According to Richard Rorty, "for pragmatists, the desire for objectivity is not the desire to escape the limitations of one's community, but simply the desire for as much intersubjective agreement as possible, the desire to extend the reference of 'us' as far as we can."
4. Karl Rove was of the belief that reality was defined as a place where "people believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." Rove continues on to say that the reality he subscribes to is not what he was seeing around him, that the reality we experience is one which acts to create its own reality. I agree with Rove to a certain extend in that reality is what we determine based off of the concrete facts and evidence around us, and that our modern day reality is one that is constantly changing depending on the decisions we as people make.
Betti Houser #12
ReplyDeleteHWT:
1) The three great founders of American pragmatism are: William James, John Dewey, and Charles Sanders Peirce
2) According to John Dewey, Philosophy recovers itself when it stops being a way to handle problems of philosophers and becomes a way for handling problems of men. It shouldn't doubt what is in our hearts, according to Charles Sanders Peirce.
More questions:
1) Have you experienced the death of someone close to you? How did you handle it? I have experienced the death of someone close to me, sadly. Just a couple weeks ago, my best friend died due to birth control complications. I'm still in mourning, as it was still so recent. How I'm currently handling it is, I'm allowing myself to cry when I need to. I'm allowing myself to remember all the fun times we had. I'm sharing memories I have of her with family and friends. I'm celebrating the life she had and I'm talking about it to others. My best friend was an organ and tissue donor, and I'm beyond proud of her, and I'm allowing myself to feel comfort in the fact that she has helped so many people even in death. I still find myself feeling selfish in wanting her to still be here. There's still so much I want to talk to her about and do with her, we were even planning to go to a convention in just a couple months. She was a part of my life for nearly half of it (almost 13 years now) so to have her gone feels like I just lost a limb. I'm lucky to have a therapist and my family and friends and HER family during this time. I've heard the first year is the hardest but it gets easier to handle as you go on, but, as my therapist said, you never truly "get over it", it just gets easier to deal with and that's kind of where I'm at right now. I just try to take things easy, and go slow. It can be frustrating at times, because I just want everything to go back to normal, but I know that my normal is different now, and it will take time to figure out what that new normal is.
Leah Knight #12
ReplyDeleteLH
1. Epicurus believed that fear of death made a person's life more intense. He claims that the best way to live is by not wanting for what is unattainable. Personally, I am not afraid of dying due to my belief in fate; I believe that I will dye on a certain day in a certain way that I can not possibly change the outcome. This gives me the peace to live everyday as if it could be my last. However, I do fear the death of a loved one because I will have to face the consequences of their death.
2. Epicurean in older times referred to the ability to make a person's physical pain more bearable through remembering their past pleasures. Today this word means something very different, and has been changed to refer to a person who indulges in luxury and sensual pleasures.
7. Seneca believed that life was much too long because people often misuse their time on this world. He believes that once people realize that life is short or that bye are coming to the end of they life, that they want more time and then begin to live their life to the fullest. I agree with Seneca. I have wasted a lot of time in the past due to fear of trying something new or wishing for the future. I am currently remedying this mistake by trying to live in the present, try new things, and to not dwell on the past and what cannot be changed.
Section #12
ReplyDeleteLH
1. Epicurus believes that there was no reason to fear death, as it was based on “bad logic”. He pointed out that no reason or evidence was pointing to why a person should fear death. And a person should rather live in the present and focus on the act of living by being happy and building relationships and just going through the motions of life. I don’t think that I have ever really been afraid of death, of course, I have thought about it, but I don’t think I’ve ever been afraid, more curious about it and what would be to happen if I were to die. (What would be the after of it). I am more afraid to lose others, yes.
2. Today’s modern meaning is used differently from Epicurus’ because, while an epicurean back then was the simplest who thought very little of extravagant things, today it is used in terms of a person living a life of luxury, or someone that has the best of something. I like to consider myself more in a way with the old definition of epicurean. I find there is no reason to fret over things we cannot control all the time and fear that which there is no evidence or sign to fear yet.
4. He did not believe there was such a thing. He thought that if there were a god, or gods, “what could they possibly get out of sending us to a hell?”, it would just be a waste of their time, that surely, they did their own thing while we did ours.
5. No reason to stress over things you can’t change.
6. Cicero believed our souls were immortal, therefor we shouldn’t worry about dying, that it was just a part of life.
7. Seneca was not necessarily bothered by dying, but rather the way people use their time in life making it meaningless. I like to make better use of my time than I used to. I have a plan for my life, and I feel like if I do everything in my power to make that plan a reality, I’m not using it inefficiently. I could be using it better in building more relationships with people.
8. The price of stoicism might be the loss of your humanity and causing you to be colder than others. I think if you make stoicism a sole part of your life you are destined to be unhappy, but I think being stoic at certain times and certain situations can benefit a person.
HWT
1. Willian James, John Dewey, and Charles Sanders
2. Philosophy “ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men." – Dewey; "what we have in our hearts” should not be doubted. – Peirce.
3. "For pragmatists, the desire for objectivity is not the desire to escape the limitations of one's community, but simply the desire for as much intersubjective agreement as possible, the desire to extend the reference of 'us' as far as we can." – Richard Rorty
Other
• I did lose my dog. Growing up homeschooled, made me very close to him, and when he dies, I took it very hard I was very sad for a long time.
• I do. My sisters are younger than me, and I hope that that means they will survive me, and maybe if I decide to have children one day, but I am not a person that fears dying so I never really thought of it in a better way.
• I don’t think much of it besides it being a possibility of what is to happen. I don’t think it is a solution or envision I think it’s just possible.
• You look at what everyone experiences and work to find out what is and isn’t possible to change. All you can do, if you don’t like something, is try your best to figure out how you can change it, and if you can’t you can’t.
• I think that is true and not true. You sometimes cannot help how you feel about a situation, it is just not how it works, but you do have the decision of allowing other people, that do enjoy it, enjoy it,