Post your questions and comments before Tuesday if possible.
LISTEN. WGU Part 3
What are some other signs of being grown-up, besides the ability to think for yourself? 123
Should corporations like Coca-Cola be allowed to have "pouring rights" in public schools? 132
- "You must take your education into your own hands as soon as possible." Did you? How? How will you (or have you) communicated this imperative to your children? 140
- Should the age of legal maturity be raised to match the age of brain maturity? 140
- Are you willing to go a month without internet? 148
- Were Augustine and Rousseau right about travel? 150-51
- Do you hope to live and work one day in another culture for at least a year? (Or have you already?) Do you think it will contribute to your maturity? 162-3
- Was Locke's "sweet" labor theory of value invalidated by the invention of money? 166
- Do we have a duty to our own humanity to work? 167
- Was Arendt correct about the distinction between labor and work, and about their rootedness in natality? 168-9
- Was Rousseau right about the value of learning to work with your hands, particularly carpentry? 172
- Do you worry, as Paul Goodman did, that there may be "no decent work to grow up for"? 173
- Is it a "travesty" to call people who work in advertising "creatives"? 175
- Is consumer capitalism infantilizing?
- Do you regularly discard "unfashionable" clothes or other goods before they wear out or break down? Should you? 179
- Do you want to produce something of value? Why? 181
- Do you expect to find meaning in your work? If not, where will you find it? 185
- "Children make more compliant subjects and consumers." 193 Are we a nation of children, in this sense?
- Do you know any adults who never grew up, or who say they admire Peter Pan, or who are "young at heart" and "open to the world"? 194 Or any young people who missed out on the joys of childhood?
- Do you wish you looked older than you do? Why?
- Is life like a journey in Neurath's boat? 196
- "Maturity cannot be commanded, it must be desired." 198 Do you desire it?
- "I wish I'd known enough to ask my teachers the right questions before they died." 198 Do you (now) have questions for people it's too late to ask?
- "Most people grow happier as they grow older." 198 Does this surprise you?
- "Growing up means realizing that no time of one's life is the best one," just as each season of the year brings its own unique joys. 202 "To be interested in the changing seasons is, in this middling zone, a happier state of mind than to be hopelessly in love with spring." (George Santayana) Do you agree?
- Do you understand what Kant meant by saying you have duties to yourself? 203
- Have you yet discovered the pleasures of generativity and generosity? 204
- Do you know anyone who treats people as means to their own ends? 206 Do you want to?
- Did you grow up in "a home filled with good books and articulate people"? 209 Do you intend to provide such a home for your children?
- If musicians and bilingual speakers have more neural connections than others, why aren't music and languages more heavily emphasized in our schools? 210
- Do you see college as an opportunity to "expand your judgment and enlarge your mind"? 213
- Is "think for yourself" necessarily vague? 215
- Are you glad you didn't live before the Enlightenment, when your life would have been largely determined by your father's (and his, and his...)? 216
- Do you agree with Leibniz, that most people would choose on their deathbed to live their lives again only on the condition that they would be different next time?
- Do you prefer Nietzsche's version of eternal recurrence (220), or Bill Murray's in Groundhog Day, or Hume's preference for the next ten years and not the last (221), or none of the above?
- Do you enjoy the music of any older popular musicians (Dylan, Springsteen...)? 225
- "The fear of growing up is less a fear of dying than a fear of life itself." 230 Agree?
- Was Shakespeare really saying life sucks and then you die? Or was he mocking that view?
Should corporations like Coca-Cola be allowed to have "pouring rights" in public schools? 132
ReplyDeleteAlong with the undue influence of corporations like Coca Cola there can be other repercussions from allowing outside influence to interfere with truth in education. That being said MTSU allows money to come from many sources in procuring educational funding. Public education should be free from influence that could affect one's personal freedoms including personal welfare and freedom of religion. During the Bush administration there was a heated debate about school vouchers and money being given to private Christian schools by the government. My thought was why take money away from a public school and give it to an institution run by a private business. I posed the question to someone that was Christian in this way: Should American taxpayer payers pay for children to go to Muslim school? You can guess the answer. School vouchers are not the same thing exactly as a company like Coca Cola exchanging the ability to sell their products in a school for some school funding but this is an example of how one company or business interest could show influence over an educational entity simply by providing money in exchange for influence
And it's an example of a democracy abrogating its sacred obligation to insure equality of educational opportunity for all young citizens, without undue commercialization or compromise of the educational mission. The idea that private corporate interests should be allowed to supplant the public role in fulfilling that mission is contrary to the vision of an informed and independent citizenry.
DeletePlus, Coca Cola and the other sorts of sponsors who end up in public school vending machines are feeding the obesity epidemic and public health crisis. Privateers have no particular motive to address that, and institutions that have made themselves beholden to private interests for essential funding are effectively powerless to do so.
Was Rousseau right about the value of learning to work with your hands, particularly carpentry? 172
ReplyDeleteI feel personal responsibility to answer this question. Learning to work with your hands was not really a question for me it was more like something I had to do. It was not because of my father because he was an insurance salesman and didn't do anything to even fix things around the house. In fact, now that I think about it that may be why I felt like I had to learn how to do things with my hands. When I was in middle school, we had the opportunity to take shop class and that was not even a question for me. I believe that learning to work with your hands in any trade is more of an inherent thing and not something you should send someone to do. I feel that just like certain kinds of math or certain kinds of writing attracts people to them it is the same with skilled trades. That being said I have gone to different parts of the country without anything but my truck and tools and built a life. At the same time when I went to apply for the contractor’s license here in New York most of the information that I was having to review was about arbitration and how to talk to each other when the city of New York would have to be involved in conflicts between contractors and homeowners. So, what I learned about contracting was that the most important thing was to learn how to mitigate liability which to me has nothing to do with working with your hands. As I have gone older in the trade, I began to notice that there were fewer and fewer people my age continuing to work. And I began to look for the kind of work that was going to be less stressful on my knees and incorporate more of my earned wisdom and less of my back. I have earned my scars and my aches and pains but each time I finish a job I get a feeling like pride but not exactly. Yes, there is pride in it but it's also that I can look at something and say it is better than it was before at least for a little while.
You're in New York? I didn't realize that.
DeleteI regret not having been encouraged to take shop class and generally acquire handi-ness. I didn't value it or see its benefits. I wish I'd read Rousseau (or had his perspective on this explained to me).
In grad school I met my friend (the future Professor) Daryl, and quickly learned to appreciate his working background and skilled craftsmanship, and the ways that informed his scholarship. I'm sure he would agree with you that "mitigating liability" etc. has nothing to do with the intrinsic satisfactions of gaining mastery over a portion of our material environment that enhances the experience and aesthetic of daily living. The tangible products of his labor are impressive, and (as I say) envy-inducing. I'll post some pics of his recent work, that he's shared with me.
There are two typo: here should be while and gone should be grown. I am in Tennessee having just finished the last room of new floors in our home.
DeleteI didn't what want to leave this discussion without mentioning Danny McCaskill and the work that he did post his own back surgery and to showcase the possibilities.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv3xVOs7_No
I feel like the music and the transition from childhood to adulthood shows a comprehensive understanding of a field of endeavor while at the same time showing a refusal to leave behind the imagination of childhood.
Understanding what adulthood meant 20 years ago and even today are much different then what adulthood or growing up may have meant to those 200 plus years ago. Transitioning from what one is or what one was or even to simplify that to say from what was to what is seems to be a continuing form of transitioning to enlightenment. The concepts of religion or responsibility or individualism that have to do with growing into what one is are highly dependent on one's own paradigm.
Does a model of maturity have to come from an individual more advanced in years, or can we find the answers to understanding in those that see growing up from a different perspective?
To your last question: Chronological maturity is no guarantee of wisdom, and there are indeed wise young souls among us. Thoreau overstated the case when he said he'd never received helpful advice from any of his elders, but it's also possible to overstate the wisdom of the old. We should respect experience, and listen to those who've had lots of it... but it still comes down to having the courage to deploy one's own understanding, and value one's own experience.
DeleteDanny McCaskill did all those stunts POST-surgery? Wow. I felt every fail, at the end. I'll not be trying any of that. I just want to get back on the street and in the park and on the greenway, with both wheels firmly in touch with terra firma. But I do appreciate the message of perseverance.
DeleteMy questions:
ReplyDelete1. Is Work the most crucial of the three life "experiences" to growing up, as Neiman seems to think when she says, "You may drop out of school, you may never learn to travel, but learning how to work is crucial to growing up" (p. 170)? Can arguments be made that Education and/or Travel are more important (or at least equal) than Work in the process of growing up?
2. Neiman says that it's more common to think about dying in your 20s than your 50s. I'm conflicted on that one. But, do you agree that "in the end the fear of growing up is less a fear of dying than a fear of life itself?" (p. 230)
1. I think work in Hannah Arendt's sense, as distinct from mere labor, may be most crucial. But I also think that form of work is inseparable from education. Literal travel is less crucial than the ability to appreciate other perspectives, which is the metaphorical form of "travel"... or mental mobility.
Delete2. I do agree. And at age 64 I can confirm, in my own case, that dying is both more immanent and less preoccupying.
The things that I remember sifting growing up are music and religion.
ReplyDeleteI cleaned the house every Saturday with my mom after Saturday morning cartoons. We listened to all types of music; Boston, Foreigner, Celine Dion, Def Leopard, The Eagles, Fleetwood Mac and so much more. I always said I couldn't stand moms music. I was of course being a surly teenager that listened to David Bowie, the cure, and motley crue. But as I got older I enjoy a some of it not because I have to listen to it, but because I make a conscious choice.
Religion was also another thing. My mom grew up Catholic, and when we began going to church outside of Catholicism, my mom wanted me dressed in pretty dresses with hats and frilly socks. I never enjoyed that aspect of church. When I got older I made the choice that it does not matter if I am in jeans or a dress, the intention of going to church is what matters most.
With all due respect: your playlist does not strike me as representing "all types of music"... How about folk, classical, country, Americana, reggae, cajun, world music et al?
DeleteCasual dress in church is more common these days in just about every mainstream denomination, isn't it? "Just as I am, without one care" etc.
In my household the issue in pre-adolescence was not how to dress for church but whether to go at all. Dad was concerned that my virtue depended on it, even though he didn't personally believe much of what was being taught in Sunday School. We talked about that in later life, and he conceded that one can indeed be good without god.
Let me add: I like Bowie, the Eagles, Fleetwood Mac... My parents listened to Perry Como and 101 Strings. Had to discover other genres of music on my own. At some point it takes courage, not just youthful rebellion, to push beyond the comfort zones of the familiar--be it in music or anything else.
Deletethings that stuck with me
ReplyDelete1) What are some things that you remember sifting while growing up? (125)
2) Do you think that a progressive school is more successful or less successful at educating students than a traditional school? (133)
1. "sifting through your parents'choices about everything"--
ReplyDeleteI sifted religion and politics pretty early on, and decided that my parents were too uncritically "loyal" to the traditions of their own childhoods. I rejected their choices in those respects (though Mom's politics and religion were closer then to mine now than Dad's), and still do.
From my present perspective, though, I can say "that's just what I'd have chosen" of their approach to my autonomy. They didn't much resist my decision to stop going to the Southern Baptist church, Dad tolerated my anti-Nixon anti-Republicanism without much objection, they were entirely supportive of my academic choices. They chose to take my sister and me on long cross-country vacation trips to expose us to other places and points of view. They generally chose to support our mental freedom. They showed me how to be that kind of parent.
I think what I most rejected of their choices was what appeared to be their over-commitment to work (or rather labor) and comparatively less attention to leisure, the arts, reflection etc. They seemed to lack a fundamental curiosity and wonder about the world. I'd look up at the night sky and marvel at the stars, and try to engage them in speculative conversation about the meaning of life etc., but they were unmoved and uninterested. Or so it seemed to my childhood self. In retrospect I imagine they were just tired.
2. I think the right kind of progressive school, rightly administered, could be more successful at creating lifelong learners who graduate with a passionate curiosity and desire to go on learning. Most conventional education seems to do all it can to crush a student's native curiosity.
But, some schools that bill themselves as progressive just turn out to be fashionable and trendy and indulgent. They churn out self-indulgent narcissists with a sense of entitlement. And they charge a fortune.
Another question that popped up today as I was rereading... Beginning on page 198 Neiman talks about studies of how people tend to become happier as they grow older. One of the suggested reasons as to why this may be is that “older people have reduced memory for negative images, suggesting that the ageing hippocampus selects rosier experiences and suppresses the rest.” (p. 199) At first, I found this to be reassuring and logical, but when I thought about it more I wondered if essentially gaining a selective memory as we age is a good thing or is it detrimental to seeing life and the world as it really is?
ReplyDeleteI prefer to retain as much memory as possible for as long as possible, myself. I think her other explanation is more plausible, that time brings perspective and growing indifference to the judgments of others. So what if they find my appreciation of the sunset kitschy? To hell with 'em. Being older means being yourself with decreasing concern for social comparison. We'll see how that holds up with the generations now growing up (or old, at least) on social media.
DeleteIs it a "travesty" to call people who work in advertising "creatives"? 175
ReplyDeleteAs someone who worked in advertising for a few years in the early 2000s, I don’t feel that it’s a travesty to label people who work in that field as “creatives.” Are they using their creative skills for the betterment of society? That is an entirely different question.
I remember fantasizing about what it would be like to work in an ad agency, and in many ways, that fantasy was true. They worked hard and played harder. It was a vibrant and fun, but demanding culture. Ideas flowed, unconventional designs were entertained, and there was no shortage of extremely talented artists, creatives, and free thinkers roaming the halls. But make no mistake, our sole purpose was to make our clients look good by making their products (and yes, the emotions they sold) look appealing so that money could be made—another cog in the machine of capitalism.
My ambition had always been to work amid creative people. That job allowed me to do that, but something was missing—fulfillment in my work and the feeling of making a real difference in something that wasn’t a client’s pocketbook. This hit home when I walked into work one morning and found everyone gathered in the owner’s office staring agape at a small tv set as the Twin Towers fell. I sat on the floor with my coworkers and we cried together. We all went home early that day and my brain went into overdrive thinking about why I was working there and what I wanted my one precious life to be like.
I left the agency soon after 9/11 and started my career in the non-profit world, with a creative and much more fulfilling bent. Now the types of creatives I try to surround myself with are the ones doing work versus labor—the ones making art for art’s sake, playing dive bars for little to no pay out of sheer love of music, the weekend photographers, the authors with coffee shop offices, etc. I appreciate the lesson that my brief foray into advertising gave me. I still feel the ad agency folks are creative as hell, but their motivations don’t align with what I want my brand of creativity to be.
Very interesting. Everything I know about advertizing culture I learned from Darrin on Bewitched and Don Draper on Mad Men. Darrin never seemed all that creative to me, he was too busy dealing with the challenges of domesticity with a witch. Don's creativity was always mixed with deviousness and duplicity, not to mention alcoholism and predatory sexuality. Seems to me creativity is ultimately valuable in proportion to the extent it serves noble ends like the quest for meaning and virtue. It's like valor in an ignoble cause, valorous but seriously tainted. The confederate dead, for instance, were personally valorous but collectively deluded. The causes we seek to serve matter.
DeleteBut our culture is pretty caught up in the whole branding phenomenon, as if it doesn't matter whether your brand stands for quality so long as it garners notoriety and publicity. And sales.
Do people ever go into advertizing because they want to master the art and craft (and science?) of propagating accurate and honest information, to raise the intelligence and sensibilities of the broad public?
My questions from Why Grow Up? Becoming Adult:
ReplyDelete1. Education has been a central theme throughout the book. Neiman states that education, travel and work are fixed parts in lives of those who aspire to become adults (pg. 124). Further, she states that there is common purpose shared: "to undercut the dogmatism of the worldviews into which we are born, to learn how people and places differ as well as what they share in common, to build a backbone for the freedom we need in order to think against the grain". Do you believe with this common purpose? Should anything additionally be added or should something be taken away? What else can education do for people in order to enlighten them?
2. For those who are parents and even for future parents, do you agree with Kant's three principles following a school that cultivates our children's minds (pg. 134). Should children be free in ALL matters? In order for a child to reach their goals, is it necessary for them to see others achieve their goals as well?
1. I do indeed believe that education, travel, and work can all contribute to our discovery of what we share with those of very different cultures and worldviews. Education can also give us a lesson in grace and humility, reminding that what we know is but a fraction of what remains to be discovered and known. It can make us more broad-minded and appreciative of diversity, less prejudiced and fearful of the unfamiliar.
Delete2. Not in ALL matters ALL the time. Human children must be protected from their inexperience. But I'm with him in spirit, our default in parenting should be to empower children to explore and discover and become uniquely themselves. AND, we need to raise them with a sense of solidarity (not cut-throat competitive hostility) toward their peers... so yes, they need to see and applaud others' successes and not merely their own.
"You must take your education into your own hands as soon as possible". Did you? How? How will you communicate this imperative to your children?
ReplyDeleteFrom my background, I have learned to value education as a facet. I come from a hispanic background where my parents are originally from El Salvador. My father did not graduate high school when he first came to the United States. As for my mother, she saw how her parents, who only have a third grade education, struggled, and she also values education which is where I gained this from. Ultimately, she wanted to set a better example for me along with a better future. She has obtained her bachelors, master, and is in the process of receiving her PhD.
From her, I valued education. Since my sophomore year of high school, I took dual enrollment classes in order to receive college credits. Once I graduated high school, I was a year ahead and entered as a sophomore which helped me graduate a whole year early. Upon graduating with my bachelors degree, that same summer I started pursuing my masters degree. Now, I will be graduating in December and hope to pursue my PhD alongside my mom.
I hope that once I have my own children they are able to see how hard I worked to pursue my education and can see the sacrifices my parents have made for me in order to do so. I have considered the option of my children attending a magnet school or perhaps even homeschooling. I would want to communicate to them how they can learn different ideas and new concepts through their education.
Yes, taking charge of your own education and offering that example to your children is one of the best lessons you can give them.
DeleteGood luck!
Have you yet discovered the pleasures of generativity and generosity? 204
ReplyDeletePersonally, I believe there are many levels to be discovered in regards to the pleasure found in generativity & generosity. Though being compassionate and giving back to my community are both components my parents instilled when raising us, I believe there are more intense depths to this as we become more aware and knowledgeable about the world around us. Seeing the world in a more realistic way as you grow older (not thinking of the world as a utopia), I have grown to appreciate the thought and sentiment behind even the smallest act of kindness. Especially living in such a rushed society, I believe it is those little moments where someone takes time out of their day for another person where we can make the most difference. The older I get, the more full my schedule gets, and the more I realize just how important and special it is to do for others.
It's crazy that acts of kindness are a surprise/switch-up in our news outlets. Why are we surprised that others would be willing to help someone out or do something to make life easier for them? In my personal opinion, this should be normal- something that we participate in every single day. But this is just another reason why I believe there are depths to the appreciation for these two components.
Page 199 shares interesting facts about a study comparing reactions of thirty-year-olds and seventy-year-olds. Does it surprise you that the results showed that older people manage emotions more smoothly?
ReplyDeleteLater on in the paragraph, the study's results suggested that, "the ageing hippocampus selects rosier experiences and suppresses the rest." Based off of this statement, do you believe that older people willingly and knowingly handle their emotions better, or does this suppression play the biggest role?
1. "Globalization gives us the illusion of knowing other cultures far better than we do." pg. 151
ReplyDeleteA current trend on TikTok is showing different aspects of culture shock that people experience when moving to another country. As an adult, would you ever be able to grow accustomed to another culture, or would you be too familiar with your own culture to accept another?
2. On page 56-57, Neiman discusses study abroad programs in universities. She states that students are not set up to fully experience and appreciate the culture. In fact, she states they are in an even more protected environment while traveling. Would you agree with her comments? If you have participated in a study abroad, did your experiences allow you to learn freely or were they highly organized and controlled?
Did you grow up in "a home filled with good books and articulate people"? 209 Do you intend to provide such a home for your children?
ReplyDeleteThis quote describes my childhood well. My parents focused highly on education from a very young age. Growing up, we attended magnet schools and were consistently supported to ensure we were making the most of our time in school. My Mom especially would always be there for homework help. She would often read through our textbooks to ensure the help she was giving would be beneficial.
Once I began working at 16, I met more people outside of my 'bubble.' Meeting all of these new people made me realize that not everyone had come from such a supportive household. It was almost shocking to me that not everyone's parents put so much emphasis on school.
I absolutely intend to provide a supportive and educated environment for my children. I do wish, though, that I would have spent a little more time focusing on the fun things throughout school. I would want my children to enjoy the social aspects of their childhood while also maintaining a focus on their education.